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	<title>Comments on: Austin Police Union officials whine about spending money on music</title>
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	<link>http://www.twogroove.com/blog/2009/06/23/austin-police-union-officials-whine-about-spending-money-on-music/</link>
	<description>TwoGroove.com's music blog, posting reviews, interviews, pictures and more from the Austin indie scene.</description>
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		<title>By: Gritsforbreakfast</title>
		<link>http://www.twogroove.com/blog/2009/06/23/austin-police-union-officials-whine-about-spending-money-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-287</link>
		<dc:creator>Gritsforbreakfast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twogroove.com/blog/?p=1709#comment-287</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for asking (no, actually, insisting) that  police &quot;defer their contractually agreed upon pay raises&quot;.  If they refuse, the city should eliminate meet and confer contract when it expires in the coming year and set their salaries - much lower- in the city budget just like everybody else. Austin police are literally the highest paid police officers on the planet when their salaries are compared to the local cost of living. (See: http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/08/state-troopers-would-need-52-pay-raise.html)

The union thinks it can bully the city council precisely because they&#039;ve successfully done so for years. But the economic crunch means they&#039;re going to have to begin telling the union &quot;no.&quot; Meanwhile, the creative sector in Texas is a key source of job growth (see the study here: http://www.createtexas.org/econ_study_1.php), but the state does little to support it. If the music office will promote jobs in the creative sector, that&#039;s exactly the type of investment Austin needs to be making during the downturn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all for asking (no, actually, insisting) that  police &#8220;defer their contractually agreed upon pay raises&#8221;.  If they refuse, the city should eliminate meet and confer contract when it expires in the coming year and set their salaries &#8211; much lower- in the city budget just like everybody else. Austin police are literally the highest paid police officers on the planet when their salaries are compared to the local cost of living. (See: <a href="http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/08/state-troopers-would-need-52-pay-raise.html)" rel="nofollow">http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/08/state-troopers-would-need-52-pay-raise.html)</a></p>
<p>The union thinks it can bully the city council precisely because they&#8217;ve successfully done so for years. But the economic crunch means they&#8217;re going to have to begin telling the union &#8220;no.&#8221; Meanwhile, the creative sector in Texas is a key source of job growth (see the study here: <a href="http://www.createtexas.org/econ_study_1.php)" rel="nofollow">http://www.createtexas.org/econ_study_1.php)</a>, but the state does little to support it. If the music office will promote jobs in the creative sector, that&#8217;s exactly the type of investment Austin needs to be making during the downturn.</p>
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		<title>By: TwoGroove</title>
		<link>http://www.twogroove.com/blog/2009/06/23/austin-police-union-officials-whine-about-spending-money-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-286</link>
		<dc:creator>TwoGroove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twogroove.com/blog/?p=1709#comment-286</guid>
		<description>To be honest, I agree with almost all of your points (especially about the noise ordinance) and I don&#039;t agree with all of the recommendations of the Live Music Task Force. 

The recommendation to create the music office seems like a sane step to me, as you say it could be a good thing. It brings live music out of the realm of the cultural arts office, promotes and recruits live music in Austin, and is a much needed voice for live music in local government. I know the noise ordinance is a big sticking point, but the bulk of the recommendations around the music office (overarching recommendations part 1) go toward improving the infrastructure and representation for live music.

If PACE takes on enforcement, it might lighten the APD burden for noise ordinance violations. Admittedly, that&#039;s a stretch, but it&#039;s more a possibility than the PACE guy getting beat up. If the past is any precedent for what might happen, your scenario where a concert is shut down won&#039;t happen. I&#039;ve been at venues when noise ordinances get violated and it takes a lot to shut down a concert while it is happening, even at small dumpy bars they give you a few warnings. I imagine APD and/or PACE would have enough foresight to see that shutting a live concert down could have immediate consequences. You&#039;re right though, the enforcement of the ordinance in general is poorly executed.

As for sound engineers, I say bring it on. The sound guy at our local venues is often a drunken joke. I&#039;m not saying we regulate the crap out of it, just set some standards and make them prove they can meet those standards. 

Thanks for your comments by the way; I&#039;m always down to hear another point of view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be honest, I agree with almost all of your points (especially about the noise ordinance) and I don&#8217;t agree with all of the recommendations of the Live Music Task Force. </p>
<p>The recommendation to create the music office seems like a sane step to me, as you say it could be a good thing. It brings live music out of the realm of the cultural arts office, promotes and recruits live music in Austin, and is a much needed voice for live music in local government. I know the noise ordinance is a big sticking point, but the bulk of the recommendations around the music office (overarching recommendations part 1) go toward improving the infrastructure and representation for live music.</p>
<p>If PACE takes on enforcement, it might lighten the APD burden for noise ordinance violations. Admittedly, that&#8217;s a stretch, but it&#8217;s more a possibility than the PACE guy getting beat up. If the past is any precedent for what might happen, your scenario where a concert is shut down won&#8217;t happen. I&#8217;ve been at venues when noise ordinances get violated and it takes a lot to shut down a concert while it is happening, even at small dumpy bars they give you a few warnings. I imagine APD and/or PACE would have enough foresight to see that shutting a live concert down could have immediate consequences. You&#8217;re right though, the enforcement of the ordinance in general is poorly executed.</p>
<p>As for sound engineers, I say bring it on. The sound guy at our local venues is often a drunken joke. I&#8217;m not saying we regulate the crap out of it, just set some standards and make them prove they can meet those standards. </p>
<p>Thanks for your comments by the way; I&#8217;m always down to hear another point of view.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Young</title>
		<link>http://www.twogroove.com/blog/2009/06/23/austin-police-union-officials-whine-about-spending-money-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-285</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twogroove.com/blog/?p=1709#comment-285</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link, that was a good read.

I do believe invoking the word &quot;slippery slope&quot; is a bit of a strawman.  Gov&#039;t programs usually start with great intentions and we look up in 10 years and say &quot;I can&#039;t believe this is what we got.&quot;  There a lots of examples, especially at the Federal level, but at the local level you&#039;ve got examples like the noise ordinance that are already being used in ways and places other than they were sold to the public.  Mike Dahmus (who I normally disagree with on many topics) has a good series of posts about how the ordinance is being used by the SoCo and McMansion crowd, not problematic downtown venues like we heard was the need for this.  The McMansion ordinance is another good example, pushed by people who had already built their McMansions to prevent competition for their mega homes and preserve their property value.  I digress...

Right on page 3 of that document you linked, they talk about code development and enforcement, and new policies.  Later, it talks about venues needing city approved ($) and trained ($$$) sound engineers (page 11, section 2).  They also want to move enforcement from APD to PACE (page 12 section 5).  I&#039;m not sure how I feel about that, my gut tells me we should consider it carefully; does it mean that PACE staff will be going out and shutting down venues?  APD has a process for this - imagine hundreds of drunk, angry college kids who are just getting kicked out of their concert that they paid for...some PACE dude in a polo shirt and khaki&#039;s is going to handle that?  There are probably other issues...

Maybe on the balance a music dept is a good thing.  There are certainly lots of issues surrounding music in Austin that have competing interests that need to be balanced: bands and fans vs. livability for a growing urban core, health insurance and cost of living for struggling bands, etc.  I&#039;ve got issues around growth of gov&#039;t in general, the necessary result of which will be higher taxes and/or higher costs to go listen to bands as these venues pay their city-mandated sound engineers, and the growth in litigiousness of our society in which all of our interactions need to be spelled out in laws, code, policies, and so on.  Whatever happened to just letting the band play, and if they&#039;re bothering you, walking over to the venue and talking to the owner?  Or better yet, researching your house BEFORE you buy or build and knowing that you back up to a music venue?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link, that was a good read.</p>
<p>I do believe invoking the word &#8220;slippery slope&#8221; is a bit of a strawman.  Gov&#8217;t programs usually start with great intentions and we look up in 10 years and say &#8220;I can&#8217;t believe this is what we got.&#8221;  There a lots of examples, especially at the Federal level, but at the local level you&#8217;ve got examples like the noise ordinance that are already being used in ways and places other than they were sold to the public.  Mike Dahmus (who I normally disagree with on many topics) has a good series of posts about how the ordinance is being used by the SoCo and McMansion crowd, not problematic downtown venues like we heard was the need for this.  The McMansion ordinance is another good example, pushed by people who had already built their McMansions to prevent competition for their mega homes and preserve their property value.  I digress&#8230;</p>
<p>Right on page 3 of that document you linked, they talk about code development and enforcement, and new policies.  Later, it talks about venues needing city approved ($) and trained ($$$) sound engineers (page 11, section 2).  They also want to move enforcement from APD to PACE (page 12 section 5).  I&#8217;m not sure how I feel about that, my gut tells me we should consider it carefully; does it mean that PACE staff will be going out and shutting down venues?  APD has a process for this &#8211; imagine hundreds of drunk, angry college kids who are just getting kicked out of their concert that they paid for&#8230;some PACE dude in a polo shirt and khaki&#8217;s is going to handle that?  There are probably other issues&#8230;</p>
<p>Maybe on the balance a music dept is a good thing.  There are certainly lots of issues surrounding music in Austin that have competing interests that need to be balanced: bands and fans vs. livability for a growing urban core, health insurance and cost of living for struggling bands, etc.  I&#8217;ve got issues around growth of gov&#8217;t in general, the necessary result of which will be higher taxes and/or higher costs to go listen to bands as these venues pay their city-mandated sound engineers, and the growth in litigiousness of our society in which all of our interactions need to be spelled out in laws, code, policies, and so on.  Whatever happened to just letting the band play, and if they&#8217;re bothering you, walking over to the venue and talking to the owner?  Or better yet, researching your house BEFORE you buy or build and knowing that you back up to a music venue?</p>
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		<title>By: TwoGroove</title>
		<link>http://www.twogroove.com/blog/2009/06/23/austin-police-union-officials-whine-about-spending-money-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-284</link>
		<dc:creator>TwoGroove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twogroove.com/blog/?p=1709#comment-284</guid>
		<description>I understand the concern about more government control; I had the same discussion about allowing guns in bars. The problem comes when the slippery slope argument is invoked. A music office will lead to this which will lead to that which means that this, etc. It&#039;s tough to argue a point when you&#039;re already to the point of establishing a volunteer noise police.

I think you give the local government too much credit while giving too little to the people of Austin. Read the recommendations about the Music Department from the Live Music Task Force and see if the future you laid out is hinted at. If so, let me know because I didn&#039;t see a lot of talk about enforcement and policies. 

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/council/downloads/lmtfreport.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the concern about more government control; I had the same discussion about allowing guns in bars. The problem comes when the slippery slope argument is invoked. A music office will lead to this which will lead to that which means that this, etc. It&#8217;s tough to argue a point when you&#8217;re already to the point of establishing a volunteer noise police.</p>
<p>I think you give the local government too much credit while giving too little to the people of Austin. Read the recommendations about the Music Department from the Live Music Task Force and see if the future you laid out is hinted at. If so, let me know because I didn&#8217;t see a lot of talk about enforcement and policies. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/council/downloads/lmtfreport.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/council/downloads/lmtfreport.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Paul Young</title>
		<link>http://www.twogroove.com/blog/2009/06/23/austin-police-union-officials-whine-about-spending-money-on-music/comment-page-1/#comment-283</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twogroove.com/blog/?p=1709#comment-283</guid>
		<description>Disagree completely.  The optics of spending money on some brand new extension of gov&#039;t on one hand, while asking our civil servants to defer their contractually agreed upon pay raises on the other is very poor.  The police union may have made it look a bit like a stunt with their timing, but I can&#039;t begrudge their opposition.

Also, the last thing Austin needs is MORE gov&#039;t control of the local music scene.  The noise ordinance is a complete disaster that is killing lots of venues.  If we establish a music dept, that will lead to more politicians, more bureaucrats who need to justify their positions by making more policies, more codes, which leads to more enforcement, which leads to more nanny state &quot;volunteers&quot; running around with noise meters and calling 911 when the music exceeds some arbitrary level.  Pretty soon the music dept will need to fund itself so they will come out with music/band permits and start charging bands to play in Austin, or some other crazy idea that does nothing but feed the machine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Disagree completely.  The optics of spending money on some brand new extension of gov&#8217;t on one hand, while asking our civil servants to defer their contractually agreed upon pay raises on the other is very poor.  The police union may have made it look a bit like a stunt with their timing, but I can&#8217;t begrudge their opposition.</p>
<p>Also, the last thing Austin needs is MORE gov&#8217;t control of the local music scene.  The noise ordinance is a complete disaster that is killing lots of venues.  If we establish a music dept, that will lead to more politicians, more bureaucrats who need to justify their positions by making more policies, more codes, which leads to more enforcement, which leads to more nanny state &#8220;volunteers&#8221; running around with noise meters and calling 911 when the music exceeds some arbitrary level.  Pretty soon the music dept will need to fund itself so they will come out with music/band permits and start charging bands to play in Austin, or some other crazy idea that does nothing but feed the machine.</p>
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